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Thursday, June 25, 2009
200 posts!
What a sad day to have my 200th blog. Yesterday saw the loss of Ed McMahon, and today Farrah Fawcett and Michael Jackson went to their eternal homes. The world has lost some great icons of television and music. I know each of them has had their troubles, but the world really is different because of each of them. Take a minute and remember how precious life is and how often we take it for granted.
Tuesday, June 9, 2009
A Time for Games?
Administration blames Bush for GM crisis
Really? We're playing the blame game still?
We're blaming Bush for the economy, foreign policy, education, healthcare, and immigration. Have I missed something? Probably.
Can we stop spending so much time worrying about who is to blame for our problems and get on to solving our problems?
A better question: with the way the Administration has been fixing them so far, making them more expensive and complicated, do we want them to spend more time trying to fix them any more?
Monday, June 8, 2009
A Long Night
I know it's silly for the authors of this site to have monikers even though most of our readers are our friends. I'm going to post a conversation between two of the authors, but I'm not going to tell you who is who, just in case you don't know already. The only reason I keep up the anonimity is to try and allow the thoughts of the authors to matter more than the names. I hope that my friend doesn't hate me too much after this long conversation, I really had a good time for its duration.
[00:53] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: BAH
[00:53] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'M ANGRY
[00:53] Frank Fields: ?
[00:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: http://www.usnews.com/blogs/planning-to-retire/2009/6/5/should-retirement-savings-be-required.html
[00:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: just read the opening question
[00:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: sorry, they have a different by-line on the rss
[00:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it says that ther's a new government plan that might require retirement savings
[00:54] Frank Fields: it's not that bad
[00:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: we already fucking have one
[00:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it's called SOCIAL SECURITY
[00:55] Frank Fields: Yes
[00:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it's bankrupting our economy
[00:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: jesus
[00:55] Frank Fields: Not really
[00:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: damn socialists just don't get it
[00:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yes really, that's what it was designed to do
[00:55] Frank Fields: They just had the chairman of the federal reserve on 60 minutes tonight
[00:55] Frank Fields: 30 minutes
[00:55] Frank Fields: you should have watched it
[00:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I can't help it that the socialists have changed it over the last 70 years that it wasn't supposed to it exist
[00:56] Frank Fields: it really dispelled a lot of what people say about the bailouts in general and the action of government interferring into private sector
[00:56] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm not angry with bailouts
[00:56] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that's a different rant
[00:56] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: we alrady have a government required retirement plan and we don't need another
[00:56] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: we actually need to drop the one we have
[00:56] Frank Fields: also, this isnt tax payer money that this article is talking about
[00:56] Frank Fields: at least as its described
[00:57] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: just a second, I'll allow for that comment to sink in and read the article one more time
[00:57] Frank Fields: I'm looking for where this money is coming from
[00:58] Frank Fields: but not finding it
[00:58] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it's coming out of your check
[00:58] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: exactly like social se3curity
[00:58] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I swear to god it is
[00:58] Frank Fields: Coming out of your check for yourself though
[00:58] Frank Fields: and
[00:58] Frank Fields: the proposal says you can opt out
[00:58] Frank Fields: so its not really a big deal
[00:58] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it's a huge deal
[00:58] Frank Fields: why?
[00:58] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the government needs to have less control on our money, not more
[00:58] Frank Fields: thats not giving them control
[00:59] Frank Fields: it would give them control if you couldn't opt out of it
[00:59] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it creates a beauracracy
[00:59] Frank Fields: but you can
[00:59] Frank Fields: so it can have as little effect as you want it to
[00:59] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you already have a retirement plan you can join if you want but don't hvave to
[00:59] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it's called a savings account
[00:59] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: there's no need for this
[00:59] Frank Fields: .........
[00:59] Frank Fields: Yes there is
[00:59] Frank Fields: its encouraging people to save
[00:59] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: social darwinism my friend
[00:59] Frank Fields: ..........
[00:59] Frank Fields: Employees could opt out if they choose.
[00:59] Frank Fields: Employees could opt out if they choose.
[00:59] Frank Fields: Employees could opt out if they choose.
[00:59] Frank Fields: Employees could opt out if they choose.
[01:00] Frank Fields: Employees could opt out if they choose.
[01:00] Frank Fields: Employees could opt out if they choose.
[01:00] Frank Fields: Employees could opt out if they choose.
[01:00] Frank Fields: get it?
[01:00] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: quit spamming whore
[01:00] Frank Fields: that should make it a non issue
[01:00] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: well you'll just have to read about it when I blog on it
[01:00] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because I don't agree with this at all
[01:00] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: not even close
[01:00] Frank Fields: dude
[01:00] Frank Fields: i just read the article
[01:00] Frank Fields: the fact you can opt out
[01:00] Frank Fields: makes it insignificant
[01:00] Frank Fields: you dont want to do it, then don't
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the fact that you can opt out makes it nonessential
[01:01] Frank Fields: its a psychological thing
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because savings accounts are optional too
[01:01] Frank Fields: that's all it is
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yeah, and it's working
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I don't want them stealing my money
[01:01] Frank Fields: They aren't....
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and giving it back to me later
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because they already do that with social security
[01:01] Frank Fields: Do you have an IRA?
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and medicare
[01:01] Frank Fields: Do you know how an IRA works?
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I do
[01:01] Frank Fields: ok
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: know how it works
[01:01] Frank Fields: then whats the problem?
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I don't have one
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I haven't opted in yet
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: but that's my option
[01:02] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the government doesn't need to have any say in the matter
[01:02] Frank Fields: then why do you have an issue with the government saying, heres an IRA, if you dont want it, dont take it
[01:02] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because banks already say that
[01:02] Frank Fields: no they dont
[01:02] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they actually sell t damn things
[01:02] Frank Fields: they dont set them up for you
[01:02] Frank Fields: and then say
[01:02] Frank Fields: do you want to cancel
[01:02] Frank Fields: you have to take the initial step
[01:02] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: if the government says everyone gets one, then there's not need for the banks to compete with different terms
[01:02] Frank Fields: and many people dont know or dont understand
[01:02] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: removing competition hurts the consumer
[01:03] Frank Fields: this doesn't remove competition either
[01:03] Frank Fields: Who says the government will have the best APY?
[01:03] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: but what if you're too dumb to understand how any of that works?
[01:03] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it doesn't take long for a government monopoly to exist
[01:03] Frank Fields: then opt out
[01:04] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: we should opt out of the program existing
[01:04] Frank Fields: .........
[01:04] Frank Fields: im not talking about social security
[01:04] Frank Fields: do you hear me defending social security?
[01:04] Frank Fields: no
[01:04] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: if you want to save money go into a bank and say "I want to save money, how do I do it."
[01:04] Frank Fields: so stop bringing it up
[01:04] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm talking about the universal IRA program
[01:04] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it shouldn't be created
[01:04] Frank Fields: something that is optional, you shouldn't complain about
[01:04] Frank Fields: its like gay marriage
[01:04] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it already is optional
[01:04] Frank Fields: if you are against it
[01:04] Frank Fields: dont get one
[01:05] Frank Fields: and stfu
[01:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it's nothing at all like gay marriage
[01:05] Frank Fields: yes it is
[01:05] Frank Fields: if you dont want the IRA
[01:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm about to call you just so that I can shout at you
[01:05] Frank Fields: dont get one
[01:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you're using a fallacious argument
[01:05] Frank Fields: ?
[01:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: one of them is a human right and the other isn't
[01:05] Frank Fields: It's optional
[01:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it's a flase analogy
[01:05] Frank Fields: optional
[01:05] Frank Fields: as in, an option
[01:05] Frank Fields: meaning not required
[01:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: but you're comparing two things that can't be compared
[01:05] Frank Fields: ok
[01:05] Frank Fields: ignore it
[01:05] Frank Fields: its optional
[01:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you're really close to getting a phone call
[01:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I know it is
[01:06] Frank Fields: .......
[01:06] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and so is the program
[01:06] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and it shouldn't exist
[01:06] Frank Fields: Are you refuting that it wouldn't get people to save more?
[01:06] Frank Fields: And the people that still want control of that money, would that affect them?
[01:07] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm saying that if people don't know how to go to a bank and start saving money themselves then they will be too dumb or too lazy to go through the government channels to opt out of the program.
[01:07] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: this hurts the poor
[01:07] Frank Fields: That's like saying people who don't know how to do their taxes won't do them
[01:07] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the rich will opt out, because they already know how to save money
[01:07] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you're the one who called people dummb
[01:07] Frank Fields: No
[01:07] Frank Fields: I said they don't understand economics and finances
[01:07] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you said they don't know how to save without government intervention
[01:07] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: which includes taxes
[01:08] Frank Fields: that's different
[01:08] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you might not think you're calling them dumb but you are
[01:08] Frank Fields: no
[01:08] Frank Fields: im saying
[01:08] Frank Fields: I said they don't understand economics and finances
[01:08] Frank Fields: like i just said
[01:08] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: lack of understanding is also called stupidity
[01:08] Frank Fields: stop trying to extend my argument to something else
[01:08] Frank Fields: in one area
[01:08] Frank Fields: not all areas
[01:08] Frank Fields: that doesn't make people stupid
[01:08] Frank Fields: just because they don't know economics
[01:08] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: did I say that a financial idiot can't care for a family?
[01:08] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: no
[01:08] Frank Fields: or accounting
[01:08] Frank Fields: no
[01:08] Frank Fields: but you are calling people stupid
[01:09] Frank Fields: not me
[01:09] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you're making my argument more than it is
[01:09] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you are calling people too stupid to know how to save money
[01:09] Frank Fields: no
[01:09] Frank Fields: im not
[01:09] Frank Fields: jesus
[01:09] Frank Fields: fuck
[01:09] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I am saying that the government needs to leave them alone
[01:09] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: lol
[01:09] Frank Fields: shut
[01:09] Frank Fields: the
[01:09] Frank Fields: fuck
[01:09] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yes you are
[01:09] Frank Fields: up
[01:09] Frank Fields: you're not listening
[01:09] Frank Fields: at all
[01:09] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I type faster than you
[01:09] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you're defending yourself in an argument that has nothing to do with the actualy topic at hand and your'e doing it badly
[01:09] Frank Fields: dude
[01:09] Frank Fields: if you keep this up
[01:09] Frank Fields: im about to block you
[01:09] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I would have just won the debate because everyone would get pissed at you for calling people stupid
[01:09] Frank Fields: you arent listening to a thing I've said
[01:10] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I know exactly what you're saying
[01:10] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I think you're wrong
[01:10] Frank Fields: no you don't
[01:10] Frank Fields: because i diddnt call anyone stupid
[01:10] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you said they don't understand
[01:10] Frank Fields: i dont understand how to mine silver, does that make me stupid?
[01:10] Frank Fields: i dont know how to fly a plane
[01:10] Frank Fields: does that make me stupid?
[01:10] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it makes you stupid when the conversation is about silver mining
[01:10] Frank Fields: no
[01:10] Frank Fields: it means
[01:11] Frank Fields: i dont understand silver mining
[01:11] Frank Fields: that's it
[01:11] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: silver mining is a rather specialized area of work
[01:11] Frank Fields: so is accounting
[01:11] Frank Fields: There is a reason there is a CPA certification
[01:11] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: personal financing is something that every taxably independent person has to go through
[01:12] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and if a person wants to save money, thank the good lord we have lots of CPAs lying around waiting to show off their expertise
[01:12] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the government is unnecessary
[01:12] Frank Fields: I'll give you a perfect example
[01:12] Frank Fields: Ariel
[01:12] Frank Fields: No savings account
[01:12] Frank Fields: No IRA
[01:12] Frank Fields: Reason: Doesn't understand how they work, thinks they are bad, money sink, etc
[01:12] Frank Fields: if you want to call her stupid
[01:12] Frank Fields: feel free
[01:13] Frank Fields: but if the government had a program to save for her, think she might understand how it works, or might find out
[01:13] Frank Fields: and if she still felt it was bad
[01:13] Frank Fields: she could say, "No, id ont want this"
[01:13] Frank Fields: and problem solved
[01:13] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: but do you think it's easier to learn how a savings account works or how to opt out of a government program
[01:13] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because actually, federal taxes are optional
[01:13] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: how many people opt out of those?
[01:14] Frank Fields: federal taxes are not optional
[01:14] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: federal income taxes*
[01:14] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yes they are
[01:14] Frank Fields: if you don't pay federal income tax, the government takes your property...
[01:14] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and then you go to court
[01:14] Frank Fields: .......
[01:14] Frank Fields: that doesn't mean they are optional
[01:14] Frank Fields: they are required by law
[01:14] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it's a long process, but federal income taxes are optional
[01:14] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they are not
[01:14] Frank Fields: no its not
[01:14] Frank Fields: because
[01:14] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: property taxes are required
[01:14] Frank Fields: my mom is now paying 15 year old taxes
[01:14] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they're different
[01:14] Frank Fields: on my dad's income
[01:14] Frank Fields: because he never paid
[01:15] Frank Fields: and they were going to take the house
[01:15] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because she doesn't want to go through the legal process to opt out of them
[01:15] Frank Fields: no
[01:15] Frank Fields: she did
[01:15] Frank Fields: they ruled against her
[01:15] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it usually goes to the supreme court
[01:15] Frank Fields: you dont know what you're talking about
[01:15] Frank Fields: trust me
[01:15] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they've ruled for other people
[01:16] Frank Fields: you want to go against the grain or her accounts and lawyers feel free - income taxes are not optional
[01:16] Frank Fields: that's a pretty dumb thing to say
[01:21] Frank Fields: Here's a good counter example: FASFA. If you were automatically qualified for a FASFA without filling out a form, wouldn't that be good? If you didn't want FASFA money, and you could opt out, great, but how many students miss the deadline and are SOL for a year? Thousands. If that was proactive instead of the way it was, it would be easier avoided. Obviously not a direct parallel, but similar implementation
[01:22] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: well I have to go back and agree that it doesn't say they are optional, the cases that i referred to were based on the premise that it doesn't say specifically in the tax code that they are required and a handful of people have been voted for in the courts, so I apologize for being wrong
[01:22] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and that's a very good counterexample
[01:22] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: however
[01:22] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: there is already a government required and controlled retirement program
[01:22] Frank Fields: That should be destroyed
[01:23] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: agreed
[01:23] Frank Fields: So
[01:23] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and no replacement should be created
[01:23] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: retirement is a personal issue
[01:23] Frank Fields: It's not the same type of program
[01:23] Frank Fields: This is an individual basis
[01:23] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: recognizing all of your arguments
[01:23] Frank Fields: it's not even socialization
[01:23] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and appreciating the difference
[01:23] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it still has its problems and it still shouldn't exist
[01:23] Frank Fields: EVERYthing has problems
[01:24] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: if the government wants to create a program to inform people about the benefits of savings, that would be great
[01:24] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I believe they call it high school
[01:24] Frank Fields: And when do they have college level accounting classes in high school?
[01:24] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: IRAs and savings accounts don't use college level math or college level accounting
[01:24] Frank Fields: No, but they do implement concepts never taught officially in high school
[01:25] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: even compound interest is taught in freshman algebra
[01:25] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: so fix education
[01:25] Frank Fields: .........
[01:25] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: much easier than fixing the tax code
[01:25] Frank Fields: that's a completely seperate issue
[01:25] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: true
[01:25] Frank Fields: you're grabbing straws man
[01:25] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: not really
[01:25] Frank Fields: you're trying to find anything to go against this
[01:25] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: no
[01:26] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: there are already reasons to be against this
[01:26] Frank Fields: when really it would have almost no effect on the people who didn't want it
[01:26] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm pointing them out
[01:26] Frank Fields: I don't think those are valid
[01:26] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: except the people who didn't understand who FICA is
[01:26] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: if they don't understand how to start a savings account, which is going into a bank and giving it money, then how do you expect them to understand how to look at their check and figure out where their money goes?
[01:27] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: how many people even look at the different taxes?
[01:27] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: does Ariel?
[01:27] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: or does she look at the number she puts in the bank and live with it?
[01:27] Frank Fields: Do you remember when you go to your job and fill out all the tax paperwork
[01:27] Frank Fields: and the options and the programs
[01:27] Frank Fields: and how they handle your money?
[01:27] Frank Fields: It would be on there
[01:27] Frank Fields: with a box that explains it, and if you want to opt out
[01:27] Frank Fields: just like all other optional programs
[01:27] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: how many of these people who don't understand economics actually read w-4s?
[01:28] Frank Fields: you have to...
[01:28] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: no, you don't
[01:28] Frank Fields: you have to sign it
[01:28] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you just have to fill it out and sign it
[01:28] Frank Fields: to say you read it
[01:28] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: which employers ask you to read it aloud?
[01:28] Frank Fields: So you're basically saying, we shouldn't have it because people commit perjury
[01:28] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yes
[01:28] Frank Fields: wow
[01:28] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that's a straw you put there, but I have to admit, it was a good one
[01:29] Frank Fields: that's completely retarded
[01:29] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: how many employers have CPAs at the hiring to make sure that every facet of the taxation is explained upon entering t ecompany?
[01:29] Frank Fields: I did
[01:29] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: must be nice
[01:29] Frank Fields: But not all do
[01:29] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: very few do
[01:29] Frank Fields: but you do have to sign saying you read and understand
[01:29] Frank Fields: and if you dont
[01:29] Frank Fields: you shouldnt sign it
[01:30] Frank Fields: what do ya know!?
[01:30] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and which programs are ptional that you opted into?
[01:30] Frank Fields: Are you asking for the names?
[01:30] Frank Fields: I couldn't tell you that
[01:30] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because social security, federal, state, and city income taxes, medicare, school taxes, I don't think those are
[01:30] Frank Fields: No, but they are shown on my weekly paycheck
[01:30] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I didn't get a list of programs to checkmark when I got hired
[01:30] Frank Fields: bi-weekly
[01:31] Frank Fields: and I did get a list of programs to checkmark
[01:31] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that's because you must get benefits of some sort
[01:31] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I don't
[01:31] Frank Fields: no
[01:31] Frank Fields: i dont get benefits
[01:31] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: then what programs are you paying for that I'm not
[01:31] Frank Fields: im just a part time hourly worker
[01:31] Frank Fields: im not
[01:31] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because I didn't checkmark anything
[01:31] Frank Fields: i didnt opt into anything
[01:31] Frank Fields: except
[01:31] Frank Fields: to have my income tax taken directly out of my check
[01:32] Frank Fields: so i didnt have to worry about paying the govt when tax time comes along
[01:32] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that's not an option I've ever been given
[01:32] Frank Fields: It's on there man
[01:32] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: then I'm on the list of morons who lie and sign the form
[01:32] Frank Fields: lol
[01:32] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and I don't want yet another program taking my money when it's not necessary
[01:33] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: if I want to save for my retirement I can figure it out
[01:33] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they have CPAs
[01:33] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and attorneys
[01:33] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and bankers
[01:33] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and teachers
[01:33] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and I'll bet the IRS would tell you if you called and asked
[01:33] Frank Fields: and still people don't use them
[01:33] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and that's their problem
[01:33] Frank Fields: Part of the economic crisis
[01:33] Frank Fields: is because people didnt know how to save money
[01:33] Frank Fields: THis is being proposed to prevent that
[01:34] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they knew how to for decades
[01:34] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they know how to in other countries
[01:34] Frank Fields: No, they never knew, it just wasn't compounded with more problems
[01:35] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: so educate them in the publicly funded educational system and be done with it
[01:35] Frank Fields: You keep screaming socialism and foul with these minor programs
[01:35] Frank Fields: and say they'll be the end of economic freedom
[01:35] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: when the government controls my money, that's the definition of socialism
[01:35] Frank Fields: but you still live in the most economically conservative country in the Western world
[01:35] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and this is the first time i've ever said it
[01:35] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: be careful with statements of most and least
[01:35] Frank Fields: Ok
[01:35] Frank Fields: Which is more economically conservative
[01:36] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and I didn't say that it would be the end of economic freedom
[01:36] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I just said it's unecessary
[01:36] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and the people who are pushing these programs are socialists
[01:36] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I was cursing them, not the idea
[01:37] Frank Fields: A lot of things are unnecessary, that doesn't make them unhelpful
[01:37] Frank Fields: there's a huge difference
[01:37] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: agreed
[01:37] Frank Fields: a lot of things are unnecessary and beneficial
[01:37] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I didn't say that the program was unhelpful
[01:37] Frank Fields: but you are arguing against it
[01:37] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I said it was unecessary
[01:37] Frank Fields: if it's beneficial
[01:37] Frank Fields: then stfu
[01:38] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
[01:38] Frank Fields: I know the constitution
[01:38] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: this program is unconstitutional because it creates a federal power that isn't enumerated in the Constitution
[01:38] Frank Fields: dude
[01:39] Frank Fields: thousands of programs are unconstitutional
[01:39] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yes
[01:39] Frank Fields: don't get constitutionalist on me
[01:39] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: why not
[01:39] Frank Fields: because im not going to argue against it
[01:39] Frank Fields: its just the way it is
[01:39] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: this is a country that is supposed to be led by the rule of law, and we're saying that the supreme law has no real meaning in the discussion
[01:39] Frank Fields: the constitution, unfortunately, means shit in regards to federal programs
[01:39] Frank Fields: and that's not going to change any time soon
[01:39] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and that's why I'm pissed
[01:40] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: now you know where I'm coming from
[01:40] Frank Fields: this doesn't have anything to do with that
[01:40] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it has everything to do with it
[01:40] Frank Fields: that amendment
[01:40] Frank Fields: has been raped for hundreds of years
[01:40] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and that needs to be corrected
[01:40] Frank Fields: ......
[01:40] Frank Fields: that has nothing to do with this proposal
[01:40] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it has everything to do with this proposal
[01:40] Frank Fields: ............
[01:40] Frank Fields: why are you hellbent on winning this argument
[01:41] Frank Fields: just let it go
[01:41] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you allow the tenth amendment to be broken because you say that this program is helpful, but the point is that it doesn't matter if it's helpful or not, it's illegal
[01:41] Frank Fields: ok
[01:41] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm not hellbent on winning, I just wanted you to recognize that my point had a right to exist, and now you have
[01:41] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: just as I earlier allowed your point to exist
[01:41] Frank Fields: i never said it DIDNT
[01:41] Frank Fields: JESUS CHRIST
[01:42] Frank Fields: i just said i dont think its valid
[01:42] Frank Fields: you never mentioned the tenth amendment until 3 minutes ago
[01:42] Frank Fields: fucks sake
[01:42] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: ace up my sleeve
[01:42] Frank Fields: get off the high horse
[01:42] Frank Fields: news flash
[01:42] Frank Fields: the 10th doesnt mean fucking shit
[01:42] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you're on the moral horse
[01:42] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it means as much as the first
[01:42] Frank Fields: it should
[01:42] Frank Fields: but it doesnt
[01:43] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because you don't require it to be by calling the government's hand
[01:43] Frank Fields: by doign what exactly?
[01:43] Frank Fields: protests?
[01:43] Frank Fields: petitions?
[01:43] Frank Fields: writing your senator?
[01:43] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: write your congressman
[01:43] Frank Fields: lol
[01:43] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: there you go
[01:43] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: :P
[01:43] Frank Fields: it doesnt make a difference
[01:43] Frank Fields: and you know that
[01:43] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because when you, a poor minority, tell your representatives that you have a problem, they listen
[01:43] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: don't you know that
[01:43] Frank Fields: and i've written my senator (and gotten replies) several times
[01:43] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that's the point of democracy
[01:43] Frank Fields: it doesnt matter man
[01:43] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it doesn't
[01:44] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: here's what does matter
[01:44] Frank Fields: you're getitng into a seperate argument
[01:44] Frank Fields: and im not going to get into this
[01:44] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: in twenty years we're going to be in charge, and if we think that t etenth amendment doesn't matter then we will continue to go along the downward spiral
[01:44] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: fine
[01:44] Frank Fields: for all practicality
[01:44] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: let me sum up
[01:44] Frank Fields: the 10th is irrelevent
[01:44] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yes it is
[01:44] Frank Fields: end of discussion
[01:45] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I don't think that this program should exist because not only is it unecessary, but it's redundant and illegal. That's all I got.
[01:45] Frank Fields: You just described.... probably 80% of federal programs
[01:45] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that 'but' shouldn't be there, incidentally
[01:46] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yes and I'm pissed off about them too
[01:46] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I didn't think you'd have time for the whole list
[01:46] Frank Fields: yet you want an international executive and legislature?
[01:46] Frank Fields: that's assbackwards
[01:46] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and this one just popped up, so it's more relevant to be pissed off about
[01:46] Frank Fields: that would compound the problem even more
[01:46] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: we already have an international legislature
[01:46] Frank Fields: Europe does
[01:46] Frank Fields: the US doesn't
[01:46] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the UN
[01:47] Frank Fields: they don't pass laws for us
[01:47] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that's a legislative body
[01:47] Frank Fields: that go into effect in our country
[01:47] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it creates laws for how we deal with other countries
[01:47] Frank Fields: yes
[01:47] Frank Fields: but not our own
[01:47] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: which makes it a legislative body
[01:47] Frank Fields: It's a legislative body, but it doesn't affect us INTERNALLY
[01:47] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you're arguing semantics with me
[01:47] Frank Fields: only EXTERNALLY
[01:47] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: but that doesn't remove it from being a legislative body
[01:47] Frank Fields: Whereas the federal government affects BOTH
[01:48] Frank Fields: its a different kind of legislature
[01:48] Frank Fields: with a different purpose
[01:48] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: did I say I wanted a sovereign international body?
[01:48] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I just said I wanted a body of sorts
[01:48] Frank Fields: I want the EU
[01:48] Frank Fields: for international
[01:48] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you want a sovereign body
[01:48] Frank Fields: the UN is fucking useless
[01:48] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: we aren't going to get into that
[01:48] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because it has no executive to back up the laws it passes
[01:49] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: but it does pass them
[01:49] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: making it a legislative body
[01:49] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that's the definition
[01:49] Frank Fields: Does the EU?
[01:49] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the Eu is closer to a treaty, if I'm not mistaken, I haven't read the charter
[01:49] Frank Fields: The EU has representatives from each country
[01:49] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: NATO doesn't have an executive
[01:49] Frank Fields: and passes laws that affect the entirety of the countries a part of it
[01:49] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: ASEAN doesn't have an executive
[01:50] Frank Fields: my point is
[01:50] Frank Fields: you dont need an executive to enforce laws
[01:50] Frank Fields: because the EU does
[01:50] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that's the definition of an executive branch
[01:50] Frank Fields: .......what is your point?
[01:50] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it doesn't have to be a separate branch
[01:50] Frank Fields: are you disputing my point?
[01:50] Frank Fields: [01:50] Frank: you dont need an executive to enforce laws
[01:50] Frank: because the EU does
[01:50] Frank Fields: thats all im saying
[01:50] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm disputing your definition
[01:50] Frank Fields: of what?
[01:50] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: executive
[01:50] Frank Fields: what did I define executive as?
[01:50] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: executive power is the enforcement of laws
[01:51] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you're using words
[01:51] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: words have definitions
[01:51] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you don't have to give them to me
[01:51] Frank Fields: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_(government)
[01:51] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: Legislatures create laws and executives enforce them, sometimes, like in the EU's case, the two bodies are the same
[01:51] Frank Fields: my definition of executive
[01:51] Frank Fields: feel free to dispute it
[01:52] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: The role of the executive is to enforce the law as written by the legislature and interpreted by the judicial system
[01:52] Frank Fields: an executive is a person
[01:52] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that's the last sentence of the third paragraph
[01:52] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: not necessarily
[01:52] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the EU proves that
[01:52] Frank Fields: ........
[01:52] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: if they enforce their own laws, then they are the executive and the legislature
[01:52] Frank Fields: that's not what an executive is.
[01:52] Frank Fields: its not as simple as just enforcing laws
[01:52] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm using your own definition to prove that it is
[01:52] Frank Fields: otherwise POLICE could be executives
[01:53] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they are
[01:53] Frank Fields: oivey
[01:53] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they are members of the executive branch
[01:53] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they president is their boss
[01:53] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they enforce the laws that the legislatures pass and the adjudicates interpret
[01:53] Frank Fields: executive branch is not the same as an executive
[01:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: but executive power is executive power
[01:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: executive power enforces laws
[01:54] Frank Fields: the only thing that enforces laws in the EU is the nations themselves
[01:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: so if the EU actually enforces a law it passes, then it is executive as well as legislative
[01:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: then it's as much good as the UN
[01:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and that's a treaty organization
[01:54] Frank Fields: why is that a problem?
[01:55] Frank Fields: Interpol and Europol
[01:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you said that you like the EU and not the UN and I just proved they're the same thing
[01:55] Frank Fields: for international disputes
[01:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: did Interpol arrest Saddam Hussein?
[01:55] Frank Fields: I don't know
[01:55] Frank Fields: did they
[01:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: no
[01:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the US military captured him
[01:56] Frank Fields: okay...
[01:56] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: if you want to say that Interpol should serve as international executive, fine, but somebody has to be at the head of that organization
[01:56] Frank Fields: I'm not saying they should
[01:56] Frank Fields: I'm saying they assist in international disputes
[01:56] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: so who enforces the laws
[01:57] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because if they can't be enforced then they're pointless
[01:57] Frank Fields: I believe for the EU
[01:57] Frank Fields: its Europol
[01:57] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: which may be truue
[01:57] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: like I said, haven't read the charter
[01:58] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: but if Europol enforces the laws, then the EU isn't
[01:58] Frank Fields: I don't really care what the charter says
[01:58] Frank Fields: I care about practicality
[01:58] Frank Fields: and practically, the EU actually has their laws enforced
[01:58] Frank Fields: the UN does not
[01:58] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and why doesn't the UN have their laws enforceD?
[01:58] Frank Fields: just like the US breaks it's own laws
[01:58] Frank Fields: and the 10th is ignored
[01:58] Frank Fields: it doesn't matter if its there if its not enforced
[01:58] Frank Fields: its irrelevent to any meta discussion
[01:59] Frank Fields: I don't know how it started, it sucks
[01:59] Frank Fields: but its fact
[01:59] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because we allow it to be
[01:59] Frank Fields: There's nothing to do
[01:59] Frank Fields: the US should have sanctions on it for the Iraq war
[01:59] Frank Fields: but it never will
[01:59] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because those of us who speak out against the breaking of our own laws are told that we're stupid and heartless and weak
[01:59] Frank Fields: Like I said
[01:59] Frank Fields: nothing to do
[01:59] Frank Fields: it doesnt matter
[01:59] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: except take over
[01:59] Frank Fields: and that wont happen
[02:00] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: watch it
[02:00] Frank Fields: when was the last revolution in a western nation?
[02:00] Frank Fields: Germany 1945
[02:00] Frank Fields: right?
[02:00] Frank Fields: last time the government was removed
[02:00] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that wasn't a revolution
[02:00] Frank Fields: ok
[02:00] Frank Fields: it was a replacement of the government
[02:00] Frank Fields: whatever you want to call it
[02:00] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that would have been somewhere around 36
[02:00] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm not talking about replacing the government
[02:01] Frank Fields: you're talking about revolution
[02:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm talking about a fundamental shift in the political discourse of this country
[02:01] Frank Fields: which is overthrowing the government
[02:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: did I use that word?
[02:01] Frank Fields: that can't happen
[02:01] Frank Fields: what you are saying, is more or less impossible
[02:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it did 40 years ago
[02:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: Reagan did it
[02:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and he was an actor
[02:01] Frank Fields: What did Reagan really do?
[02:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: before him JFK did it, and he was rich
[02:02] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: before him FDR did it
[02:02] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and Wilson
[02:02] Frank Fields: What is this huge demonstrative action you're talkinga bout?
[02:02] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm talking about forcing the government to obey its own laws
[02:02] Frank Fields: that has never happened
[02:02] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it has
[02:02] Frank Fields: Ever since John Adams was president
[02:02] Frank Fields: lol
[02:02] Frank Fields: the government will always break its own laws when it's convienent
[02:03] Frank Fields: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts
[02:03] Frank Fields: ring a bell?
[02:03] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: which would mean, according to Hobbes, that the law would no longer be sovereign. and this country is not a christian nation, it's a nation of laws
[02:03] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yeah thanks Andrew
[02:04] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I believe I was him on a facebook quiz
[02:04] Frank Fields: You were John Adams on a facebook quiz?
[02:04] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I was Andrew Jackson
[02:04] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: have I mixed up my history
[02:04] Frank Fields: Adams passed those
[02:04] Frank Fields: not jackson
[02:04] Frank Fields: that was my point
[02:04] Frank Fields: unconstitutional laws (4 of them) passed 11 years after we were a nation
[02:05] Frank Fields: it will always happen
[02:05] Frank Fields: there were riots int he streets about them back then
[02:05] Frank Fields: he was an immensely unpopular president as result
[02:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and the guy after him corrected it
[02:05] Frank Fields: but it still didn't change anything long term
[02:05] Frank Fields: Yes, but long term, it did nothing
[02:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: according to the article, Jefferson's main argument against them was that they broke which amendment?
[02:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the tenth
[02:05] Frank Fields: I know
[02:06] Frank Fields: but then its only a matter of time
[02:06] Frank Fields: before something else gets passed
[02:06] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yeah, long term we're all dead anyway
[02:06] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: so what does retirement matter?
[02:06] Frank Fields: ............
[02:06] Frank Fields: good night
[02:06] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: good night
[00:53] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'M ANGRY
[00:53] Frank Fields: ?
[00:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: http://www.usnews.com/blogs/planning-to-retire/2009/6/5/should-retirement-savings-be-required.html
[00:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: just read the opening question
[00:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: sorry, they have a different by-line on the rss
[00:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it says that ther's a new government plan that might require retirement savings
[00:54] Frank Fields: it's not that bad
[00:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: we already fucking have one
[00:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it's called SOCIAL SECURITY
[00:55] Frank Fields: Yes
[00:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it's bankrupting our economy
[00:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: jesus
[00:55] Frank Fields: Not really
[00:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: damn socialists just don't get it
[00:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yes really, that's what it was designed to do
[00:55] Frank Fields: They just had the chairman of the federal reserve on 60 minutes tonight
[00:55] Frank Fields: 30 minutes
[00:55] Frank Fields: you should have watched it
[00:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I can't help it that the socialists have changed it over the last 70 years that it wasn't supposed to it exist
[00:56] Frank Fields: it really dispelled a lot of what people say about the bailouts in general and the action of government interferring into private sector
[00:56] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm not angry with bailouts
[00:56] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that's a different rant
[00:56] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: we alrady have a government required retirement plan and we don't need another
[00:56] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: we actually need to drop the one we have
[00:56] Frank Fields: also, this isnt tax payer money that this article is talking about
[00:56] Frank Fields: at least as its described
[00:57] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: just a second, I'll allow for that comment to sink in and read the article one more time
[00:57] Frank Fields: I'm looking for where this money is coming from
[00:58] Frank Fields: but not finding it
[00:58] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it's coming out of your check
[00:58] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: exactly like social se3curity
[00:58] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I swear to god it is
[00:58] Frank Fields: Coming out of your check for yourself though
[00:58] Frank Fields: and
[00:58] Frank Fields: the proposal says you can opt out
[00:58] Frank Fields: so its not really a big deal
[00:58] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it's a huge deal
[00:58] Frank Fields: why?
[00:58] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the government needs to have less control on our money, not more
[00:58] Frank Fields: thats not giving them control
[00:59] Frank Fields: it would give them control if you couldn't opt out of it
[00:59] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it creates a beauracracy
[00:59] Frank Fields: but you can
[00:59] Frank Fields: so it can have as little effect as you want it to
[00:59] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you already have a retirement plan you can join if you want but don't hvave to
[00:59] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it's called a savings account
[00:59] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: there's no need for this
[00:59] Frank Fields: .........
[00:59] Frank Fields: Yes there is
[00:59] Frank Fields: its encouraging people to save
[00:59] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: social darwinism my friend
[00:59] Frank Fields: ..........
[00:59] Frank Fields: Employees could opt out if they choose.
[00:59] Frank Fields: Employees could opt out if they choose.
[00:59] Frank Fields: Employees could opt out if they choose.
[00:59] Frank Fields: Employees could opt out if they choose.
[01:00] Frank Fields: Employees could opt out if they choose.
[01:00] Frank Fields: Employees could opt out if they choose.
[01:00] Frank Fields: Employees could opt out if they choose.
[01:00] Frank Fields: get it?
[01:00] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: quit spamming whore
[01:00] Frank Fields: that should make it a non issue
[01:00] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: well you'll just have to read about it when I blog on it
[01:00] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because I don't agree with this at all
[01:00] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: not even close
[01:00] Frank Fields: dude
[01:00] Frank Fields: i just read the article
[01:00] Frank Fields: the fact you can opt out
[01:00] Frank Fields: makes it insignificant
[01:00] Frank Fields: you dont want to do it, then don't
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the fact that you can opt out makes it nonessential
[01:01] Frank Fields: its a psychological thing
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because savings accounts are optional too
[01:01] Frank Fields: that's all it is
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yeah, and it's working
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I don't want them stealing my money
[01:01] Frank Fields: They aren't....
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and giving it back to me later
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because they already do that with social security
[01:01] Frank Fields: Do you have an IRA?
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and medicare
[01:01] Frank Fields: Do you know how an IRA works?
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I do
[01:01] Frank Fields: ok
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: know how it works
[01:01] Frank Fields: then whats the problem?
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I don't have one
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I haven't opted in yet
[01:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: but that's my option
[01:02] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the government doesn't need to have any say in the matter
[01:02] Frank Fields: then why do you have an issue with the government saying, heres an IRA, if you dont want it, dont take it
[01:02] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because banks already say that
[01:02] Frank Fields: no they dont
[01:02] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they actually sell t damn things
[01:02] Frank Fields: they dont set them up for you
[01:02] Frank Fields: and then say
[01:02] Frank Fields: do you want to cancel
[01:02] Frank Fields: you have to take the initial step
[01:02] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: if the government says everyone gets one, then there's not need for the banks to compete with different terms
[01:02] Frank Fields: and many people dont know or dont understand
[01:02] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: removing competition hurts the consumer
[01:03] Frank Fields: this doesn't remove competition either
[01:03] Frank Fields: Who says the government will have the best APY?
[01:03] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: but what if you're too dumb to understand how any of that works?
[01:03] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it doesn't take long for a government monopoly to exist
[01:03] Frank Fields: then opt out
[01:04] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: we should opt out of the program existing
[01:04] Frank Fields: .........
[01:04] Frank Fields: im not talking about social security
[01:04] Frank Fields: do you hear me defending social security?
[01:04] Frank Fields: no
[01:04] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: if you want to save money go into a bank and say "I want to save money, how do I do it."
[01:04] Frank Fields: so stop bringing it up
[01:04] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm talking about the universal IRA program
[01:04] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it shouldn't be created
[01:04] Frank Fields: something that is optional, you shouldn't complain about
[01:04] Frank Fields: its like gay marriage
[01:04] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it already is optional
[01:04] Frank Fields: if you are against it
[01:04] Frank Fields: dont get one
[01:05] Frank Fields: and stfu
[01:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it's nothing at all like gay marriage
[01:05] Frank Fields: yes it is
[01:05] Frank Fields: if you dont want the IRA
[01:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm about to call you just so that I can shout at you
[01:05] Frank Fields: dont get one
[01:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you're using a fallacious argument
[01:05] Frank Fields: ?
[01:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: one of them is a human right and the other isn't
[01:05] Frank Fields: It's optional
[01:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it's a flase analogy
[01:05] Frank Fields: optional
[01:05] Frank Fields: as in, an option
[01:05] Frank Fields: meaning not required
[01:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: but you're comparing two things that can't be compared
[01:05] Frank Fields: ok
[01:05] Frank Fields: ignore it
[01:05] Frank Fields: its optional
[01:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you're really close to getting a phone call
[01:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I know it is
[01:06] Frank Fields: .......
[01:06] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and so is the program
[01:06] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and it shouldn't exist
[01:06] Frank Fields: Are you refuting that it wouldn't get people to save more?
[01:06] Frank Fields: And the people that still want control of that money, would that affect them?
[01:07] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm saying that if people don't know how to go to a bank and start saving money themselves then they will be too dumb or too lazy to go through the government channels to opt out of the program.
[01:07] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: this hurts the poor
[01:07] Frank Fields: That's like saying people who don't know how to do their taxes won't do them
[01:07] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the rich will opt out, because they already know how to save money
[01:07] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you're the one who called people dummb
[01:07] Frank Fields: No
[01:07] Frank Fields: I said they don't understand economics and finances
[01:07] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you said they don't know how to save without government intervention
[01:07] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: which includes taxes
[01:08] Frank Fields: that's different
[01:08] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you might not think you're calling them dumb but you are
[01:08] Frank Fields: no
[01:08] Frank Fields: im saying
[01:08] Frank Fields: I said they don't understand economics and finances
[01:08] Frank Fields: like i just said
[01:08] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: lack of understanding is also called stupidity
[01:08] Frank Fields: stop trying to extend my argument to something else
[01:08] Frank Fields: in one area
[01:08] Frank Fields: not all areas
[01:08] Frank Fields: that doesn't make people stupid
[01:08] Frank Fields: just because they don't know economics
[01:08] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: did I say that a financial idiot can't care for a family?
[01:08] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: no
[01:08] Frank Fields: or accounting
[01:08] Frank Fields: no
[01:08] Frank Fields: but you are calling people stupid
[01:09] Frank Fields: not me
[01:09] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you're making my argument more than it is
[01:09] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you are calling people too stupid to know how to save money
[01:09] Frank Fields: no
[01:09] Frank Fields: im not
[01:09] Frank Fields: jesus
[01:09] Frank Fields: fuck
[01:09] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I am saying that the government needs to leave them alone
[01:09] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: lol
[01:09] Frank Fields: shut
[01:09] Frank Fields: the
[01:09] Frank Fields: fuck
[01:09] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yes you are
[01:09] Frank Fields: up
[01:09] Frank Fields: you're not listening
[01:09] Frank Fields: at all
[01:09] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I type faster than you
[01:09] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you're defending yourself in an argument that has nothing to do with the actualy topic at hand and your'e doing it badly
[01:09] Frank Fields: dude
[01:09] Frank Fields: if you keep this up
[01:09] Frank Fields: im about to block you
[01:09] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I would have just won the debate because everyone would get pissed at you for calling people stupid
[01:09] Frank Fields: you arent listening to a thing I've said
[01:10] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I know exactly what you're saying
[01:10] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I think you're wrong
[01:10] Frank Fields: no you don't
[01:10] Frank Fields: because i diddnt call anyone stupid
[01:10] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you said they don't understand
[01:10] Frank Fields: i dont understand how to mine silver, does that make me stupid?
[01:10] Frank Fields: i dont know how to fly a plane
[01:10] Frank Fields: does that make me stupid?
[01:10] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it makes you stupid when the conversation is about silver mining
[01:10] Frank Fields: no
[01:10] Frank Fields: it means
[01:11] Frank Fields: i dont understand silver mining
[01:11] Frank Fields: that's it
[01:11] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: silver mining is a rather specialized area of work
[01:11] Frank Fields: so is accounting
[01:11] Frank Fields: There is a reason there is a CPA certification
[01:11] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: personal financing is something that every taxably independent person has to go through
[01:12] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and if a person wants to save money, thank the good lord we have lots of CPAs lying around waiting to show off their expertise
[01:12] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the government is unnecessary
[01:12] Frank Fields: I'll give you a perfect example
[01:12] Frank Fields: Ariel
[01:12] Frank Fields: No savings account
[01:12] Frank Fields: No IRA
[01:12] Frank Fields: Reason: Doesn't understand how they work, thinks they are bad, money sink, etc
[01:12] Frank Fields: if you want to call her stupid
[01:12] Frank Fields: feel free
[01:13] Frank Fields: but if the government had a program to save for her, think she might understand how it works, or might find out
[01:13] Frank Fields: and if she still felt it was bad
[01:13] Frank Fields: she could say, "No, id ont want this"
[01:13] Frank Fields: and problem solved
[01:13] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: but do you think it's easier to learn how a savings account works or how to opt out of a government program
[01:13] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because actually, federal taxes are optional
[01:13] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: how many people opt out of those?
[01:14] Frank Fields: federal taxes are not optional
[01:14] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: federal income taxes*
[01:14] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yes they are
[01:14] Frank Fields: if you don't pay federal income tax, the government takes your property...
[01:14] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and then you go to court
[01:14] Frank Fields: .......
[01:14] Frank Fields: that doesn't mean they are optional
[01:14] Frank Fields: they are required by law
[01:14] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it's a long process, but federal income taxes are optional
[01:14] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they are not
[01:14] Frank Fields: no its not
[01:14] Frank Fields: because
[01:14] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: property taxes are required
[01:14] Frank Fields: my mom is now paying 15 year old taxes
[01:14] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they're different
[01:14] Frank Fields: on my dad's income
[01:14] Frank Fields: because he never paid
[01:15] Frank Fields: and they were going to take the house
[01:15] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because she doesn't want to go through the legal process to opt out of them
[01:15] Frank Fields: no
[01:15] Frank Fields: she did
[01:15] Frank Fields: they ruled against her
[01:15] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it usually goes to the supreme court
[01:15] Frank Fields: you dont know what you're talking about
[01:15] Frank Fields: trust me
[01:15] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they've ruled for other people
[01:16] Frank Fields: you want to go against the grain or her accounts and lawyers feel free - income taxes are not optional
[01:16] Frank Fields: that's a pretty dumb thing to say
[01:21] Frank Fields: Here's a good counter example: FASFA. If you were automatically qualified for a FASFA without filling out a form, wouldn't that be good? If you didn't want FASFA money, and you could opt out, great, but how many students miss the deadline and are SOL for a year? Thousands. If that was proactive instead of the way it was, it would be easier avoided. Obviously not a direct parallel, but similar implementation
[01:22] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: well I have to go back and agree that it doesn't say they are optional, the cases that i referred to were based on the premise that it doesn't say specifically in the tax code that they are required and a handful of people have been voted for in the courts, so I apologize for being wrong
[01:22] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and that's a very good counterexample
[01:22] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: however
[01:22] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: there is already a government required and controlled retirement program
[01:22] Frank Fields: That should be destroyed
[01:23] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: agreed
[01:23] Frank Fields: So
[01:23] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and no replacement should be created
[01:23] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: retirement is a personal issue
[01:23] Frank Fields: It's not the same type of program
[01:23] Frank Fields: This is an individual basis
[01:23] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: recognizing all of your arguments
[01:23] Frank Fields: it's not even socialization
[01:23] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and appreciating the difference
[01:23] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it still has its problems and it still shouldn't exist
[01:23] Frank Fields: EVERYthing has problems
[01:24] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: if the government wants to create a program to inform people about the benefits of savings, that would be great
[01:24] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I believe they call it high school
[01:24] Frank Fields: And when do they have college level accounting classes in high school?
[01:24] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: IRAs and savings accounts don't use college level math or college level accounting
[01:24] Frank Fields: No, but they do implement concepts never taught officially in high school
[01:25] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: even compound interest is taught in freshman algebra
[01:25] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: so fix education
[01:25] Frank Fields: .........
[01:25] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: much easier than fixing the tax code
[01:25] Frank Fields: that's a completely seperate issue
[01:25] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: true
[01:25] Frank Fields: you're grabbing straws man
[01:25] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: not really
[01:25] Frank Fields: you're trying to find anything to go against this
[01:25] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: no
[01:26] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: there are already reasons to be against this
[01:26] Frank Fields: when really it would have almost no effect on the people who didn't want it
[01:26] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm pointing them out
[01:26] Frank Fields: I don't think those are valid
[01:26] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: except the people who didn't understand who FICA is
[01:26] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: if they don't understand how to start a savings account, which is going into a bank and giving it money, then how do you expect them to understand how to look at their check and figure out where their money goes?
[01:27] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: how many people even look at the different taxes?
[01:27] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: does Ariel?
[01:27] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: or does she look at the number she puts in the bank and live with it?
[01:27] Frank Fields: Do you remember when you go to your job and fill out all the tax paperwork
[01:27] Frank Fields: and the options and the programs
[01:27] Frank Fields: and how they handle your money?
[01:27] Frank Fields: It would be on there
[01:27] Frank Fields: with a box that explains it, and if you want to opt out
[01:27] Frank Fields: just like all other optional programs
[01:27] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: how many of these people who don't understand economics actually read w-4s?
[01:28] Frank Fields: you have to...
[01:28] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: no, you don't
[01:28] Frank Fields: you have to sign it
[01:28] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you just have to fill it out and sign it
[01:28] Frank Fields: to say you read it
[01:28] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: which employers ask you to read it aloud?
[01:28] Frank Fields: So you're basically saying, we shouldn't have it because people commit perjury
[01:28] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yes
[01:28] Frank Fields: wow
[01:28] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that's a straw you put there, but I have to admit, it was a good one
[01:29] Frank Fields: that's completely retarded
[01:29] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: how many employers have CPAs at the hiring to make sure that every facet of the taxation is explained upon entering t ecompany?
[01:29] Frank Fields: I did
[01:29] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: must be nice
[01:29] Frank Fields: But not all do
[01:29] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: very few do
[01:29] Frank Fields: but you do have to sign saying you read and understand
[01:29] Frank Fields: and if you dont
[01:29] Frank Fields: you shouldnt sign it
[01:30] Frank Fields: what do ya know!?
[01:30] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and which programs are ptional that you opted into?
[01:30] Frank Fields: Are you asking for the names?
[01:30] Frank Fields: I couldn't tell you that
[01:30] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because social security, federal, state, and city income taxes, medicare, school taxes, I don't think those are
[01:30] Frank Fields: No, but they are shown on my weekly paycheck
[01:30] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I didn't get a list of programs to checkmark when I got hired
[01:30] Frank Fields: bi-weekly
[01:31] Frank Fields: and I did get a list of programs to checkmark
[01:31] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that's because you must get benefits of some sort
[01:31] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I don't
[01:31] Frank Fields: no
[01:31] Frank Fields: i dont get benefits
[01:31] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: then what programs are you paying for that I'm not
[01:31] Frank Fields: im just a part time hourly worker
[01:31] Frank Fields: im not
[01:31] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because I didn't checkmark anything
[01:31] Frank Fields: i didnt opt into anything
[01:31] Frank Fields: except
[01:31] Frank Fields: to have my income tax taken directly out of my check
[01:32] Frank Fields: so i didnt have to worry about paying the govt when tax time comes along
[01:32] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that's not an option I've ever been given
[01:32] Frank Fields: It's on there man
[01:32] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: then I'm on the list of morons who lie and sign the form
[01:32] Frank Fields: lol
[01:32] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and I don't want yet another program taking my money when it's not necessary
[01:33] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: if I want to save for my retirement I can figure it out
[01:33] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they have CPAs
[01:33] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and attorneys
[01:33] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and bankers
[01:33] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and teachers
[01:33] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and I'll bet the IRS would tell you if you called and asked
[01:33] Frank Fields: and still people don't use them
[01:33] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and that's their problem
[01:33] Frank Fields: Part of the economic crisis
[01:33] Frank Fields: is because people didnt know how to save money
[01:33] Frank Fields: THis is being proposed to prevent that
[01:34] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they knew how to for decades
[01:34] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they know how to in other countries
[01:34] Frank Fields: No, they never knew, it just wasn't compounded with more problems
[01:35] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: so educate them in the publicly funded educational system and be done with it
[01:35] Frank Fields: You keep screaming socialism and foul with these minor programs
[01:35] Frank Fields: and say they'll be the end of economic freedom
[01:35] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: when the government controls my money, that's the definition of socialism
[01:35] Frank Fields: but you still live in the most economically conservative country in the Western world
[01:35] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and this is the first time i've ever said it
[01:35] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: be careful with statements of most and least
[01:35] Frank Fields: Ok
[01:35] Frank Fields: Which is more economically conservative
[01:36] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and I didn't say that it would be the end of economic freedom
[01:36] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I just said it's unecessary
[01:36] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and the people who are pushing these programs are socialists
[01:36] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I was cursing them, not the idea
[01:37] Frank Fields: A lot of things are unnecessary, that doesn't make them unhelpful
[01:37] Frank Fields: there's a huge difference
[01:37] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: agreed
[01:37] Frank Fields: a lot of things are unnecessary and beneficial
[01:37] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I didn't say that the program was unhelpful
[01:37] Frank Fields: but you are arguing against it
[01:37] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I said it was unecessary
[01:37] Frank Fields: if it's beneficial
[01:37] Frank Fields: then stfu
[01:38] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
[01:38] Frank Fields: I know the constitution
[01:38] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: this program is unconstitutional because it creates a federal power that isn't enumerated in the Constitution
[01:38] Frank Fields: dude
[01:39] Frank Fields: thousands of programs are unconstitutional
[01:39] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yes
[01:39] Frank Fields: don't get constitutionalist on me
[01:39] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: why not
[01:39] Frank Fields: because im not going to argue against it
[01:39] Frank Fields: its just the way it is
[01:39] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: this is a country that is supposed to be led by the rule of law, and we're saying that the supreme law has no real meaning in the discussion
[01:39] Frank Fields: the constitution, unfortunately, means shit in regards to federal programs
[01:39] Frank Fields: and that's not going to change any time soon
[01:39] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and that's why I'm pissed
[01:40] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: now you know where I'm coming from
[01:40] Frank Fields: this doesn't have anything to do with that
[01:40] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it has everything to do with it
[01:40] Frank Fields: that amendment
[01:40] Frank Fields: has been raped for hundreds of years
[01:40] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and that needs to be corrected
[01:40] Frank Fields: ......
[01:40] Frank Fields: that has nothing to do with this proposal
[01:40] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it has everything to do with this proposal
[01:40] Frank Fields: ............
[01:40] Frank Fields: why are you hellbent on winning this argument
[01:41] Frank Fields: just let it go
[01:41] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you allow the tenth amendment to be broken because you say that this program is helpful, but the point is that it doesn't matter if it's helpful or not, it's illegal
[01:41] Frank Fields: ok
[01:41] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm not hellbent on winning, I just wanted you to recognize that my point had a right to exist, and now you have
[01:41] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: just as I earlier allowed your point to exist
[01:41] Frank Fields: i never said it DIDNT
[01:41] Frank Fields: JESUS CHRIST
[01:42] Frank Fields: i just said i dont think its valid
[01:42] Frank Fields: you never mentioned the tenth amendment until 3 minutes ago
[01:42] Frank Fields: fucks sake
[01:42] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: ace up my sleeve
[01:42] Frank Fields: get off the high horse
[01:42] Frank Fields: news flash
[01:42] Frank Fields: the 10th doesnt mean fucking shit
[01:42] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you're on the moral horse
[01:42] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it means as much as the first
[01:42] Frank Fields: it should
[01:42] Frank Fields: but it doesnt
[01:43] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because you don't require it to be by calling the government's hand
[01:43] Frank Fields: by doign what exactly?
[01:43] Frank Fields: protests?
[01:43] Frank Fields: petitions?
[01:43] Frank Fields: writing your senator?
[01:43] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: write your congressman
[01:43] Frank Fields: lol
[01:43] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: there you go
[01:43] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: :P
[01:43] Frank Fields: it doesnt make a difference
[01:43] Frank Fields: and you know that
[01:43] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because when you, a poor minority, tell your representatives that you have a problem, they listen
[01:43] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: don't you know that
[01:43] Frank Fields: and i've written my senator (and gotten replies) several times
[01:43] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that's the point of democracy
[01:43] Frank Fields: it doesnt matter man
[01:43] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it doesn't
[01:44] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: here's what does matter
[01:44] Frank Fields: you're getitng into a seperate argument
[01:44] Frank Fields: and im not going to get into this
[01:44] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: in twenty years we're going to be in charge, and if we think that t etenth amendment doesn't matter then we will continue to go along the downward spiral
[01:44] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: fine
[01:44] Frank Fields: for all practicality
[01:44] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: let me sum up
[01:44] Frank Fields: the 10th is irrelevent
[01:44] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yes it is
[01:44] Frank Fields: end of discussion
[01:45] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I don't think that this program should exist because not only is it unecessary, but it's redundant and illegal. That's all I got.
[01:45] Frank Fields: You just described.... probably 80% of federal programs
[01:45] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that 'but' shouldn't be there, incidentally
[01:46] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yes and I'm pissed off about them too
[01:46] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I didn't think you'd have time for the whole list
[01:46] Frank Fields: yet you want an international executive and legislature?
[01:46] Frank Fields: that's assbackwards
[01:46] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and this one just popped up, so it's more relevant to be pissed off about
[01:46] Frank Fields: that would compound the problem even more
[01:46] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: we already have an international legislature
[01:46] Frank Fields: Europe does
[01:46] Frank Fields: the US doesn't
[01:46] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the UN
[01:47] Frank Fields: they don't pass laws for us
[01:47] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that's a legislative body
[01:47] Frank Fields: that go into effect in our country
[01:47] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it creates laws for how we deal with other countries
[01:47] Frank Fields: yes
[01:47] Frank Fields: but not our own
[01:47] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: which makes it a legislative body
[01:47] Frank Fields: It's a legislative body, but it doesn't affect us INTERNALLY
[01:47] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you're arguing semantics with me
[01:47] Frank Fields: only EXTERNALLY
[01:47] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: but that doesn't remove it from being a legislative body
[01:47] Frank Fields: Whereas the federal government affects BOTH
[01:48] Frank Fields: its a different kind of legislature
[01:48] Frank Fields: with a different purpose
[01:48] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: did I say I wanted a sovereign international body?
[01:48] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I just said I wanted a body of sorts
[01:48] Frank Fields: I want the EU
[01:48] Frank Fields: for international
[01:48] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you want a sovereign body
[01:48] Frank Fields: the UN is fucking useless
[01:48] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: we aren't going to get into that
[01:48] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because it has no executive to back up the laws it passes
[01:49] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: but it does pass them
[01:49] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: making it a legislative body
[01:49] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that's the definition
[01:49] Frank Fields: Does the EU?
[01:49] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the Eu is closer to a treaty, if I'm not mistaken, I haven't read the charter
[01:49] Frank Fields: The EU has representatives from each country
[01:49] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: NATO doesn't have an executive
[01:49] Frank Fields: and passes laws that affect the entirety of the countries a part of it
[01:49] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: ASEAN doesn't have an executive
[01:50] Frank Fields: my point is
[01:50] Frank Fields: you dont need an executive to enforce laws
[01:50] Frank Fields: because the EU does
[01:50] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that's the definition of an executive branch
[01:50] Frank Fields: .......what is your point?
[01:50] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it doesn't have to be a separate branch
[01:50] Frank Fields: are you disputing my point?
[01:50] Frank Fields: [01:50] Frank: you dont need an executive to enforce laws
[01:50] Frank: because the EU does
[01:50] Frank Fields: thats all im saying
[01:50] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm disputing your definition
[01:50] Frank Fields: of what?
[01:50] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: executive
[01:50] Frank Fields: what did I define executive as?
[01:50] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: executive power is the enforcement of laws
[01:51] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you're using words
[01:51] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: words have definitions
[01:51] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you don't have to give them to me
[01:51] Frank Fields: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_(government)
[01:51] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: Legislatures create laws and executives enforce them, sometimes, like in the EU's case, the two bodies are the same
[01:51] Frank Fields: my definition of executive
[01:51] Frank Fields: feel free to dispute it
[01:52] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: The role of the executive is to enforce the law as written by the legislature and interpreted by the judicial system
[01:52] Frank Fields: an executive is a person
[01:52] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that's the last sentence of the third paragraph
[01:52] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: not necessarily
[01:52] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the EU proves that
[01:52] Frank Fields: ........
[01:52] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: if they enforce their own laws, then they are the executive and the legislature
[01:52] Frank Fields: that's not what an executive is.
[01:52] Frank Fields: its not as simple as just enforcing laws
[01:52] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm using your own definition to prove that it is
[01:52] Frank Fields: otherwise POLICE could be executives
[01:53] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they are
[01:53] Frank Fields: oivey
[01:53] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they are members of the executive branch
[01:53] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they president is their boss
[01:53] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: they enforce the laws that the legislatures pass and the adjudicates interpret
[01:53] Frank Fields: executive branch is not the same as an executive
[01:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: but executive power is executive power
[01:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: executive power enforces laws
[01:54] Frank Fields: the only thing that enforces laws in the EU is the nations themselves
[01:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: so if the EU actually enforces a law it passes, then it is executive as well as legislative
[01:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: then it's as much good as the UN
[01:54] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and that's a treaty organization
[01:54] Frank Fields: why is that a problem?
[01:55] Frank Fields: Interpol and Europol
[01:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: you said that you like the EU and not the UN and I just proved they're the same thing
[01:55] Frank Fields: for international disputes
[01:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: did Interpol arrest Saddam Hussein?
[01:55] Frank Fields: I don't know
[01:55] Frank Fields: did they
[01:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: no
[01:55] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the US military captured him
[01:56] Frank Fields: okay...
[01:56] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: if you want to say that Interpol should serve as international executive, fine, but somebody has to be at the head of that organization
[01:56] Frank Fields: I'm not saying they should
[01:56] Frank Fields: I'm saying they assist in international disputes
[01:56] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: so who enforces the laws
[01:57] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because if they can't be enforced then they're pointless
[01:57] Frank Fields: I believe for the EU
[01:57] Frank Fields: its Europol
[01:57] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: which may be truue
[01:57] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: like I said, haven't read the charter
[01:58] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: but if Europol enforces the laws, then the EU isn't
[01:58] Frank Fields: I don't really care what the charter says
[01:58] Frank Fields: I care about practicality
[01:58] Frank Fields: and practically, the EU actually has their laws enforced
[01:58] Frank Fields: the UN does not
[01:58] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and why doesn't the UN have their laws enforceD?
[01:58] Frank Fields: just like the US breaks it's own laws
[01:58] Frank Fields: and the 10th is ignored
[01:58] Frank Fields: it doesn't matter if its there if its not enforced
[01:58] Frank Fields: its irrelevent to any meta discussion
[01:59] Frank Fields: I don't know how it started, it sucks
[01:59] Frank Fields: but its fact
[01:59] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because we allow it to be
[01:59] Frank Fields: There's nothing to do
[01:59] Frank Fields: the US should have sanctions on it for the Iraq war
[01:59] Frank Fields: but it never will
[01:59] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: because those of us who speak out against the breaking of our own laws are told that we're stupid and heartless and weak
[01:59] Frank Fields: Like I said
[01:59] Frank Fields: nothing to do
[01:59] Frank Fields: it doesnt matter
[01:59] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: except take over
[01:59] Frank Fields: and that wont happen
[02:00] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: watch it
[02:00] Frank Fields: when was the last revolution in a western nation?
[02:00] Frank Fields: Germany 1945
[02:00] Frank Fields: right?
[02:00] Frank Fields: last time the government was removed
[02:00] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that wasn't a revolution
[02:00] Frank Fields: ok
[02:00] Frank Fields: it was a replacement of the government
[02:00] Frank Fields: whatever you want to call it
[02:00] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: that would have been somewhere around 36
[02:00] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm not talking about replacing the government
[02:01] Frank Fields: you're talking about revolution
[02:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm talking about a fundamental shift in the political discourse of this country
[02:01] Frank Fields: which is overthrowing the government
[02:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: did I use that word?
[02:01] Frank Fields: that can't happen
[02:01] Frank Fields: what you are saying, is more or less impossible
[02:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it did 40 years ago
[02:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: Reagan did it
[02:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and he was an actor
[02:01] Frank Fields: What did Reagan really do?
[02:01] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: before him JFK did it, and he was rich
[02:02] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: before him FDR did it
[02:02] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and Wilson
[02:02] Frank Fields: What is this huge demonstrative action you're talkinga bout?
[02:02] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I'm talking about forcing the government to obey its own laws
[02:02] Frank Fields: that has never happened
[02:02] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: it has
[02:02] Frank Fields: Ever since John Adams was president
[02:02] Frank Fields: lol
[02:02] Frank Fields: the government will always break its own laws when it's convienent
[02:03] Frank Fields: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts
[02:03] Frank Fields: ring a bell?
[02:03] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: which would mean, according to Hobbes, that the law would no longer be sovereign. and this country is not a christian nation, it's a nation of laws
[02:03] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yeah thanks Andrew
[02:04] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I believe I was him on a facebook quiz
[02:04] Frank Fields: You were John Adams on a facebook quiz?
[02:04] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: I was Andrew Jackson
[02:04] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: have I mixed up my history
[02:04] Frank Fields: Adams passed those
[02:04] Frank Fields: not jackson
[02:04] Frank Fields: that was my point
[02:04] Frank Fields: unconstitutional laws (4 of them) passed 11 years after we were a nation
[02:05] Frank Fields: it will always happen
[02:05] Frank Fields: there were riots int he streets about them back then
[02:05] Frank Fields: he was an immensely unpopular president as result
[02:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: and the guy after him corrected it
[02:05] Frank Fields: but it still didn't change anything long term
[02:05] Frank Fields: Yes, but long term, it did nothing
[02:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: according to the article, Jefferson's main argument against them was that they broke which amendment?
[02:05] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: the tenth
[02:05] Frank Fields: I know
[02:06] Frank Fields: but then its only a matter of time
[02:06] Frank Fields: before something else gets passed
[02:06] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: yeah, long term we're all dead anyway
[02:06] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: so what does retirement matter?
[02:06] Frank Fields: ............
[02:06] Frank Fields: good night
[02:06] calvin.sidle@gmail.com: good night
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